Fallujah 3:16
I once was recruited by a sect/denomination known as the Christian Alliance Church. These were some hardcore believers, not your garden variety churchgoer who deep down knows heaven is bullshit but prefers not to think rationally. The Alliance Church saw missionary work as part of their duty as good Christians, and our youth leaders had been all over the world spreading the good word of our good Lord.
From their perspective, there was nothing immoral about prosthelytizing. Why should there be? As I said, these were no fakers; they genuinely believed the official story the bible feeds us. That means death marks a fork in the road, two paths to two very different eternities. Believers spend forever in paradise; non-believers stay stuck in hell.
So if that’s what you truly believe, then of course you see yourself as doing folks a huge favor by attempting to convert them. You are “saving” them. Anything short of that is evidence that you don’t actually believe the words in all-knowing bible.
Recently a Marine in Fallujah gave out Christian coins to Iraqi residents. On one side, the coins asked “Where will you spend eternity?” and on the flip side they displayed the beloved New Testament verse, John 3:16. Our soldier (presumably) wasn’t trying to disrespect anybody. He was trying to “save” them. A selfless act of caring, redirecting a hellbound peoples.
Many of the Muslim natives, however, saw it differently. To them, the Marine’s actions, coupled with last week’s Qu’ran target-shooting episode, represents a deliberate attempt on the part of the United States to spread Christianity across the world. They see that not as a rescue, but as an inappropriate cultural invasion.
Once again, the West and East demonstrate their complete ignorance about each other’s worldviews.
These repeated cultural misunderstandings are just further evidence that no God exists (or, at best, that the God who created man is completely disconnected from the Gods that man created). Either that, or He gets off on watching us suffer. An all-knowing, all-powerful entity would have the good sense to teach His science project how not to self-destruct. If He loved us.
(Cross posted at The Public Intellectual)
Tags: allah, Americans, atheism, bible, Christian Alliance Church, christianity, christians, culture, god, Iraq, Iraq War, islam, jesus, John 3:16, military, muslims, New Testament, politics, religion, U.S. military, USA, war, world
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May 29, 2008 at 10:30 pm
[...] May 29, 2008 by M. Frederick Voorhees (Cross posted at Leviticus 19:19) [...]
June 6, 2008 at 12:57 pm
As a Christian, believe it or not, I actually want to thank you. One of the most frustrating things is to hear people criticize believers for believing that, as you said, “…death marks a fork in the road, two paths to two very different eternities. Believers spend forever in paradise; non-believers go to hell.” (I would actually change “paradise” to Heaven, but whatever.
) Then, people turn right around and in the same sentence ridicule our attempt to at least warn people about what we believe to be truth.
It seems that they could at least respect the fact that we are acting on what we say is true, as you seem to do, rather than saying one thing and doing another.
It may just be your religious background, but I appreciate that you are putting a little effort into representing “our side” with a little more accuracy than many.
However, I would like to clarify a couple things that perhaps you were taught or have simply misunderstood. I think it starts in your statement, “…no God exists (or, at best, that the God who created man is completely disconnected from the Gods that man created…”
The Bible teaches it is not so much that God is disconnected with man as it is man who is disconnected with God. It was man who sinned against God; therefore it is man who severed that connection. Then, of course, it was Christ who made it possible to “reconnect” as it were. I’m assuming that you are familiar with such talk.
I wanted to make that distinction because I think it leads to your idea that cultural misunderstandings are a proof of either the nonexistence or disconnection of God. Cultural misunderstanding is the result of ignorance.
The fact is, God has tried to teach us how not to self-destruct. The problem is, that teaching is found in a Book that many have written off as fairy tale.
I warn you of this because you seem to make the logical mistake that you previously tried to avoid. You critique Christianity on the basis of global conflict, yet you also critique the solution Christianity offers. Again, I appreciate your attempt to correctly represent our side.
June 6, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Hi TJ-
If there were a God who was actively concerned about the well-being of humans, I would say His greatest gift to us is our ability to think and reason. It is our brain that allows us to avoid being devoured by all sorts of species physically superior to us. Yet, when we use these brains to contemplate our position in the universe, all logic points to evidence that suggests (a) the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven, and (b) all currently prevailing religious ideologies (Islam, Christianity, etc.) are either wrought with cruel and unusual contradictions or, more likely, bogus.
God may have originally guided the hand of man to write the bible you cherish. But historians and even Christian theologians have shown that the actual words within those bibles have drastically changed and evolved over the years. Entire scriptures have been omitted (i.e., the book of Mary); passages have been rewritten for political purposes. The sanctity of a girl’s virginity wasn’t about “purity,” it was about population control.
Bottom line: the bible today has different words and laws from the one that existed two millenniums ago. So that means: either God deliberately presented our ancestors with a faulty version of the bible, or He gave them the real deal, and then, as time passed they manipulated its rules and regulations for their own selfish means. Keep in mind, our ancestors were ridiculous, ruthless folks. If they cherry-picked and edited bible verses 800 years ago, how do we know what God’s plan really is. Maybe his plan is for someone like me to encourage someone like you to set the record straight.
Perhaps I am a prophet. Perhaps “God’s plan” for me is to guide me in critical thought in order to convince loyal Christians such as yourself that the entire way 21st century Westerners do Christianity is blasphemous. As a rational, thoughtful person, you have to deal with these historical discrepancies, don’t you? Why else would God have so generously given us the gift of common sense?
June 6, 2008 at 6:20 pm
I agree that many ideologies are wrought with cruel and unusual contradictions, including diluted versions of Christianity. However, I would also include the atheist/agnostic view along with those. You see, I disagree that all logic points to evidence that suggests that God can neither be proven to exist nor proven not to exist.
Concerning the Bible, it has been proven to 98 percent textually pure. Through all the copying of the Biblical manuscripts of the entire Bible, only 1% has any question about it and that 1% does not affect doctrine. The areas of interest are called variants and they consist mainly of variations of wording and spelling.
Pseudo-scripture like the book of Mary are so young that the early church was not even around to see them. Writings like the book of Judas were a little older, but were still far too young to even be considered to be apart of the Biblical Canon. Historical and Archaeological study make a mockery of these while confirming over and over again the historical reliability the true Christian Canon.
The bottom line: the NT has over 5000 supporting Greek manuscripts existing today with another 20,000 manuscripts in other languages. While we do not have the original parchments themselves, some of the manuscript evidence dates to within 100 years of the original writing. Those manuscripts that we have found to be 1500-1800 years old confirm the integrity of the Greek texts we use today. God did give our ancestors the “real deal” and then miraculously preserved it. So, you and I can know exactly what His plan is. Maybe His plan is for someone like me to encourage someone like you to see the proverbial record for what it already is.
Perhaps I am just some Christian. Perhaps God’s plan for me is to guide me in logical thought in order to convince questioning skeptics such as yourself that the popular “new” atheism is misguided, illogical and deadly. As a rational, thoughtful person, you have to deal with these historical consistencies, don’t you? Why else would God have so generously given you the gift of belief?
June 7, 2008 at 2:33 pm
The gift of belief? First of all, that link doesn’t go anywhere. Secondly, agnosticism is not a belief system. As I said, the existence of God can neither be proved nor disproved. All official religious texts used to prove His existence are wanting. God may indeed exist; but if He does, clues about his tastes and wishes cannot be garnered from the fables we find in bibles, Torahs, and Qu’rans.
As a rational person I recognize that it is downright dangerous to claim the bible is a historically accurate representation of the word of God. The “lazy Christians” who refuse to actually take seriously what the bible says perhaps recognize this danger; you apparently do not.
If the bible, as you suggest, represents the literal worldview of God, then I fundamentally disagree with Him on questions of right and wrong. You see, I don’t want to stone my son to death if he is stubborn, as your God would require (Deut. 21: 18-21). I don’t want to gather up the town to murder wife if she is not a virgin (Deut. 22: 13-21). I don’t want to own or beat slaves (1 Peter 2:18, Ephesians 6:5, Colossians 3:22-24).
That, in essence, was the point of my blog entry. Either we must recognize the limitations and shortcomings of biblical-informed morality OR we must get to work and start murdering our rebellious kids and “impure” wives. If the latter be the case, as you appear to suggest, then I’m afraid Christian fundamentalism has more in common with Islamic terrorism than we might want to admit.
I do find your refusal to resort to making convoluted excuses on God’s behalf for the bible’s ethical discrepancies commendable and refreshing.
June 10, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Allow me to apologize for a couple things. First, sorry for the delayed responce. Second, sorry about the dud link. I think I corrected the problem here. If not I’ll try again later. I have to admit, I’m a HTML lightweight.
I appreciate your commendation. I’m not sure what you would define as “convoluted excuses”, and I hope that my reasons for believing what I believe are do not qualify. Nevertheless, they are my reasons, convoluted or not.
You are correct in asserting that I believe that the Bible represents a literal worldview. However, I think your “disagreements with God” are wrongly founded.
For example: The command Deut. 21: 18-21 is intended to keep order in the family and in society. God’s intention was that the family not be reduced to the point that authority is undermined. If familial rebellion were to become rampant, there would be serious consequences in society as a whole. (see here)
Also, you mentioned Deut. 22: 13-21. However much you may want to disregard it, this is simply a difference between the Old Testament and the New. Case in point, a few pharisees tried to pull that rule in front of Jesus and simply forgave the woman because of here repentant heart. (John 8:1-12) (for more detail see here)
As for the New Testament passages you mentioned – All three of those verses are simply addressing Christian’s obligation to submit to authority. There’s nothing commanding or even refering to owning slaves, much less beating them.
Is there are large cultural gap to jump in order to understand the Bible? Yes, of course. But you cannot base your unbelief on misunderstanding, can you?
By the way, how is agnosticism not a belief system?
I’d like to offer some advice. Why not stop looking for reasons to not believe and start looking at all the reasons to believe?
June 11, 2008 at 12:13 am
No worries about the old link not working, and thanks for the new ones. My HTML is shaky, too—I usually have to edit things a few times before they work properly.
I guess you’ve touched on part of what I mean by “convoluted reasoning” here. “Faith” is itself an assault on reason; but it is a very useful tool for justifying the selective weeding out of Bible verses that don’t make sense today. What is your litmus test for deciding which parts of the Old Testament don’t count? If you can discount Old Testament verses that make God seem like a barbarian, then why not omit the entire Old Testament? Why not ditch the Ten Commandments as well? This is an example of humans making the final call, not God. For God gave us the bible to convey His words; why would He state rules if He didn’t intend for us to follow them? When you conclude that murdering non-virgin wives is inappropriate, you are in essence disagreeing with God. Your conclusion is informed not by the bible, but by your own knowledge of what it means to be a civilized human being in the 21st century. You have decided NOT to take that part of the bible literally; a wise choice, for the only alternative is defending the indefensible.
“The command Deut. 21: 18-21 is intended to keep order in the family and in society. God’s intention was that the family not be reduced to the point that authority is undermined.”
There might have been a clearer way for God to express these concerns, rather than encouraging us to gather up the entire town to publicly execute our children. Was that just a metaphor? Again, you seem to be suggesting that God did not mean for His words to be taken literally.
“there’s nothing commanding or even refering to owning slaves, much less beating them.”
The words “servant” and “slave” are widely recognized as interchangeable in this context. “Slave” is used in the New International version. This was, of course, the version that tried to bridge the two-thousand year cultural gap of which you speak. In addition, chapter 25 in Leviticus lays out God’s rules for Christian slave ownership (that they must come from foreign countries and can be willed to our children). And chapter 21 in Exodus teaches us that beating slaves with rods is acceptable (since after all, they are our Property) as long as the slaves get up and walk away “after a day or two” (21:21) and don’t die as a result of our beatings. The Confederate South “religiously” adhered to these verses and referenced them in order to round up patriotic support for the American Civil War. But again, you’ve made clear that these verses are off-limits, due to the Old Testament vs. New Testament loophole.
“you cannot base your unbelief on misunderstanding, can you? By the way, how is agnosticism not a belief system?”
This question inspired me to reflect and write a new blog entry in response.
June 11, 2008 at 12:23 pm
OK. This is where the generosity of our conversation (which I greatly appreciate, by the way) will be tested. I will not be able to respond at length to your most previous comment and post right now. But, I would very much like to within a day or two. It is a busy time of the year for me, and I will be unavailable for the next couple of days. However, I look forward to continuing our discussion. Thanks for understanding.
June 11, 2008 at 5:53 pm
No problem. My blog and I will be here whenever you’re ready.
July 5, 2008 at 5:22 am
Thank you for recognizing the ideological differences that define two different people, as the root cause of stupid squabbles! I feel i’m not alone then.
good job